True story, OneDrive is the one piece of Microsoft software where I always accept any prompts to give feedback or fill surveys.
My feedback is always the same: “This is the piece of software that has cost me the most money and work hours over the years”
This is an accurate assessment.
Oh, I didn’t mean to come across like that, I’m just saying you don’t sound like the archetypal Windows user and even if you were you’d be in a tiny minority.
Which, yeah, tracks with what you’re saying about both your use case and your profile. You sure don’t sound like you’re using your PC as the average end user does. The average user has not tried Linux, doesn’t have those applications in mind, certainly has no set opinion on dual booting or UEFI. You ARE a bit of a unicorn there. As am I, I suppose, although I’m bouncing back and forth, not maining Linux, and not because I’m particularly dissatisfied with Win 11 specifically.
You are pretty archetypal on the OneDrive thing. Everybody has had an annoying experience with One Drive recently. I don’t know that there are any other experiences to be had with OneDrive at all, to be honest.
Cool, mr. Unicorn. You are a small minority of a small minority, though. I do have lots of questions about whether you would have upgraded to 11 given the chance, or about when you intend to get a new PC, and whether you’d switch to Win 11 then, or about why you didn’t try the workarounds for the compatibility issues, or why you aren’t trying the options to extend the support on Windows 10, or whether the spyware thing would have been enough and so whether you’d have switched regardless. Because you sure sound like a guy who would have tried Linux before. “Why I am on Linux on my primary desktop computer” is… very specific wording.
But taking you at your word you’re still 2% of 2%. Of 2%, given that you’re on Lemmy. Except you seem to be on programming.dev, so… of 2%?
I’m gonna guess from the scratched and replaced line that this was an edit. The original response was about federal systems in general, the guy generalized from the US, I noted this was not the case in general. I guess I wouldn’t have been confused if you had responded to him, but I was specifically not talking about the US. Muddled online chats with strangers are muddled, I suppose.
Which states and which federal government?
Yeah, it’s absolutely a catch-22. That said, most Linux distros come with closed source repos deactivated out of the box. The nicer ones will at least ask you during the install process, but some don’t bother. It’s less about convincing the devs to port and more about exposing the stuff that already exists.
And Proton shows that a translation layer that works reliably on Linux isn’t impossible, it just needs the right amount of focus and investment. I don’t know how far the current tools are from that, though. Which is interesting, because I do use Linux on the daily and I haven’t even bothered to check in ages, instead moving to Windows for that, which tells you something.
To quote myself just one post above:
I agree with the idea that selling that everything can be the same on Linux is not a great plan, but Linux advocates often focus on the wrong things to keep and change. They are often very focused on having a similar looking desktop, which nobody cares too much about, and really dismissive about software not having Linux ports, which is a catastrophic issue.
I do see what you see on principle, but I’d argue that the reasons KDE and Linux overall can come up short on “being good in its own right” are significant and often self-inflicted. No user should have to manually add a repository to their software manager, let alone a Windows “exile”. Being the only major OS without native or emulated compatibility with major software suites is a dealbreaker for many people and so on.
Whether KDE or Wine or the kernel teams are able to fix the issues remains irrelevant to the end users. I agree they should find their own optimal ways to fix things, I’m saying they haven’t found them in many of these areas.
Windows 8 to Windows 10 didn’t. Which is why Windows 8 was quickly swept under the rug and Windows 9 was named Windows 8.1 to try to make people forget that ever happened.
10 to 11 are reskins of each other as far as the UX is concerned. Behind the scenes there are some hardware and software compatibility quirks, but at the user level it’s perhaps the least eventful Windows transition ever.
I know people complain about the enshittification in 11, but a lot of people leave out that many of the controversial features got patched into 10 as well.
I agree with the idea that selling that everything can be the same on Linux is not a great plan, but Linux advocates often focus on the wrong things to keep and change. They are often very focused on having a similar looking desktop, which nobody cares too much about, and really dismissive about software not having Linux ports, which is a catastrophic issue.
Ah.
I mean, still, point stands. But… ah.
Agreed. It serves as a bit of a backlog for that reason, and that’s a more honest approach than pretending everything is sorted already.
People that do these sorts of remote work via GUIs exist. But yes, the switch is likely pretty obvious to them. I for one used to do it with Minecraft server stuff, I had FileZilla; Dolphin pretty much replaced that instantly for me. MUCH later, scripts replaced Dolphin.
They exist, but they already know that Linux is an option. It’s not a selling point, it’s a bit of an echo chamber about how it’s possible to do the things you already know every OS can do. If you’re messing with those things you’ve been in a million tutorials with segments on how to do stuff in Win/MacOS/Linux over the years.
Is it though? They’d face the same issues switching to MacOS. There’s no point in lying that some of their favorite programs may not work. I still miss Paint.net though GIMP has grown on me a lot.
If GIMP has grown on you a lot you probably should check with a doctor about that. Because ew.
I think it is. The scale to which you’ll have to swap software solutions is way larger in Linux, which is why nobody is writing the same advice for Windows or Mac marketing. I’d argue Mac-to-Windows will lose you more options, but either way the expectation is that the software will be there for you or that you’ll have a better alternative that is an actual selling point. “Come over and see if you can find a viable alternative to all your work software” is a huge dealbreaker.
Nobody is going to leave their old Windows files on their OS drive AND install Linux unless their goal is to dual boot (and that’s clearly not who this is for).
Isn’t it, though? I mean, I get why you wouldn’t float that option when you’re trying to push people to move over entirely, but… that’s definitely an option.
The entire file system needs to be replaced in the process of installing Linux, so there’s no “somebody should find a better solution to this.” The only way to do it would be to relocate and resize partitions as files are copied … and that’s incredibly dangerous. Not to mention attempting to guess what files are important to the Windows user has a high probability to fail.
Well, yeah, but you’re describing the problem, not a solution. Let’s say that there is no technical solution to preserve a data drive across OSs (there is, but hey). That’s an inconvenience, at best, a major problem at worst. In a world where Windows will update you without messing with your partitions and even a clean install will preserve your separate data drives (which Windows has encouraged splitting from the boot drives for a while), this is a reason why you’d be discouraged to take on the more finicky, annoying process of moving everything over to Linux. Especially if you don’t know if you’re going to like it and may have to move everything back.
People should update software (at least when there’s a security related issue) … for the exact same reason they should ditch Windows 10. However, as you said “Having to explain to people that their perfectly working computer is actually not working despite all available evidence is a bit of an issue.”
Yeah, I’ve always been torn about Windows’ approach to updates because of this. I do want automatic updates. I don’t want to have to remember to manually check for and fire off updates. Especially when the longer you wait the more of a gamble it becomes that something will have broken after you’re done.
This became a meme on Windows because their early implementations of Windows update were insanely blunt and annoying. Nobody wants their computer to reset in the middle of a presentation or a game. I’d say that an automated reminder to update or an update scheduler are not inherently a bad thing, though. For big sysadmins that will only update what’s strictly necessary you want the option of manual updates, but for desktop users who typically will want to be on latest for everything? Just letting their computers update overnight or on every reboot isn’t the worst idea ever.
Alright, so add that to the top of the pile of issues, then.
The fact that the current development structure producing Linux and its distros/DEs can’t solve those issues doesn’t justify the issues. End users won’t give Linux a pass, they just want this stuff to work.
Hah. I don’t know if you want to point at the display drivers as an advantage yet. Would be nice, though.
And hey, what’s wrong with Gnome? I use Gnome right now. The endless arguments about how Linux is so customizable but whatever customization choice you made is clearly wrong are definitely part of the issue.
I think people are more likely to give up the security of not having constant admin access if they could get the same software they do now.
As I said in the wall of text above, going “oh, by the way, all your software won’t work, but you will find alternatives” is a massive dealbreaker. It’s one thing to bring people over to Linux, but trying to do that AND transition people to a full open source environment is a crazy overreach. A Linux distro focused on being Windows-like by offering closed software out of the box and better options for a click-and-play Windows compatibility layer would be way more appealing to many. You can work on their open source bona fides once they are inside the ecosystem.
On October 14 Microsoft wants to turn [your computer] into junk. It may seem like it continues to work after that date.
I don’t begrudge KDE for fishing for converts. It’s a perfectly reasonable idea and hey, already more structured marketing than most Linux initiatives ever get around to deploying.
The page does highlight some of the contradictions in the W10 EoL being the great big hope for a major Linux transition for average users. For one thing… yeah, it won’t seem like all those computers keep working, they will keep working. Indefinitely. Having to explain to people that their perfectly working computer is actually not working despite all available evidence is a bit of an issue.
The whole page is a who’s who of flawed arguments Linux advocates keep impotently making at Windows users. It may be more useful as a guide for the things Linux contributors should be focusing on fixing than as an outreach tool.
Just for a few examples:
For the technically minded, need to connect to your web server to update your blog, or your cloud to upload photos, or even your software repository for development? Just pop open Dolphin, Plasma’s file explorer, and use its connectivity tools, that include FTP/SSH clients, cloud integration software, Git/SVN/Mercurial, and more.
Yeah, who the hell is out there SSHing into their web server “to update their blog” but needs to be talked down like a toddler to convince them to try out Linux? This is a mythical beast of an user that does not exist.
You may be wondering if you will still be able to do what you did on Windows.
Linux does take some getting used to after years of using Windows, and you may need different programs to work and play.
Right, that’s a big red flag right there for any normie or semi-tech literate professional with a set workflow.
But there are three tricks that will make the transition easier:
- Rely on the Free Software community … And ask a lot of questions! Linux users are a proud bunch and will happily guide you so you quickly become at home.
Nobody wants to ask any questions. Users want to be hand-held by their interface, not a community. Definitely not the Linux community (see the inevitable set of comments soon to materialize below this as an example).
- Do not expect the same things you would use in Windows … but instead look for the programs that will do the same job on Linux.
This is a massive dealbreaker for a whole bunch of people, for understandable reasons.
Keeping all your files and folders will require some planning, but it is not hard. Get yourself an external hard disk you can plug into a USB port and dump all the stuff you want to save on that. You will have no problem reading it from Plasma later on.
This is simultaneoulsy an over and understatement. You can very likely access your old Windows drives from Linux, but it’s janky enough that this piece of advice makes sense. Plus you’re very likely to squash a bunch of your storage when installing Linux anyway. And when you think about the idea of pulling a couple of terabytes out of your machine just to copy them back over to the exact same drive this seems like a bit more of a hassle than presented.
I haven’t thought about this particular issue in a while because I’m set up so it doesn’t matter much to me when I install either OS, but… yeah, someone should find a better solution to this.
No forced updates
However, every single tutorial and guide you read will tell you to update all right at the top with the compulsive zeal of a puppy who has just smelled a hidden treat. You may not grow to be as annoyed by this as I am… but if you do, know that I see you.
Again, I am on board with the initiative. I just think there is a bit of denial about both the upcoming demise of Win10 and about how viable this transition process is for the types of users stuck in Win10 at the end of 2025. The entire document is an accidental admission of the gaps that still exist and I would love for it to become a roadmap of things to improve more than a pitch at this void Venn diagram of hypothetical users. If the caveats they list here get fixed it will take remarkably less coaxing to bring users over next time.
It’s been a while and I forget the details of exactly what flow or set of steps led to me impotently clicking on things that were unresponsive because a Glance popup was on. I remember being annoyed by it relatively frequently. The memory I have of it was that Glance was cool to have going into it, but almost always frustrating to have to close again.
To be clear, I have no horse in this race. I encourage people to try Zen and Firefox and pick either of them over any of the Chromium hordes. I’m just explaining why I went into Zen, used it primarily for a while, side-by-side with Firefox when vertical tabs came in and then phased it out because FF was a better fit for me. There is no us vs them here at all.
It works, though. And the UX is basically Win10 with a modern big data business coat of paint.
Even if I buy that the brain drain in a company with a staff the size of a mid-tier city can’t sort out the tech side, which is debatable, that is still a functional OS.
One can make excuses for Vista, but it had absurd compatibility and performance issues in the hardware it was targetting. 95 and Me were barely stable enough to run software. Windows 8 was a (bad) tablet OS crammed into a desktop environment.
I’m not saying Windows 11 is good, I’m saying the bottom of this particular barrel is in the Mariana trench.
I mean, who wasn’t in on the crypto hate? It was such an obvious scam.
I do agree on the characterization of why they are different, but I’d still say a lot of the hate train rolled right from one to the other. It’s not a 100% overlap, but… it’s up there.
Yep. And in turn the haters are 100% willing to buy this framing where AI will kill all jobs and sap all energy and data on the planet immediately, because that both helps sell the product and makes opposing it all the more appealing.
I suspect they are both extremely optimistic about what the tech will be able to do, at least in the short term.
Which part?
For closed source repositories of software that is currently available it’s just a matter of having them included by default and actively prompting them on app managers as opposed to defaulting to hiding anything that isn’t open source by default. Different distros come closer or further from this in the first place.
I imagine if you were going to go out of your way a bit further you’d restructure some of your splash pages and manager layouts to promote those based on popularity out of the gate.
There’s an argument for a next step to be pre-packaging windows apps that can work under Wine directly in a package manager, but that’s a bigger project and I genuinely don’t think Wine is ready for that yet. Linux probably needs a better translation layer that works more reliably and comprehensively before that’s an option. But hey, somebody should get on all of that, too.